Torque Cars

renault espace t16 brake fade hard to exsplain

Discussion in 'Brakes' started by t16espace, 23 March 2015.

  1. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    right im going to try my best to exsplain best i can here we go. i have changed all pads and disks and now if i give it the beans for a even just a mile both my front brakes are smoking. i cannot feel any resistance when rolling in neutral and when hot get a soft pedal(only when hot).even when smoking if i jak the car up wheels move freely but the smoke and smell is present. from both front wheels. i have also replaced the one way valve on the vacuum pipe. i no this is a rover 200bhp plus engine in a renault espace but the brakes are the same as the v6 ones and i didnt have this problem before i changed pads and disks. maybe a coincidence maybe not.any help would be great
     
  2. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Right foot? :) ?
     
  3. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    :Dmay be but it wasnt doing it before i changed brakes. also surely they wouldnt look like they smoking like thers a fire after a mile when i stop i can see the smoke comming from either side when side sat in the car .so frustrating
     
  4. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    What pads and discs are you using? Any chance of the anti rust coating burning off perhaps?
     
  5. T9 man

    T9 man TC Pro Founder Moderator

    Messages:
    20,369
    From:
    London, UK
    Car:
    Saab 9-3SS T9
    ^^ As HDi said! Buddy, with a new set of discs and pads it is always wise to replace the brake fluid, plus there is a bedding in procedure of the pads which must be followed to the letter. Did you buy the right pads and not buy a set which states race or track on the labelling? I would also take off the wheels double sharpish and make sure you have fitted the pads correctly and to triple check that the callipers have not seized on due to something you may have done incorrectly.
     
  6. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Pads vary widely in quality. Bedding in is actually best done savagely rather than gently. In which what you have done here (assuming decent pads, not Eicher rubbish) is the best way to burnish them. Some smoke is to be expected during bed-in. The smoke will diminish provided you're not driving at full bore all the time.
     
  7. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    got apec disks and pads i done a 400 mile round trip before i changed them with no problems there or back.i do have a heavy foot but like i said was fine before. ive checkd calipers and are not binding or seem to be sticking even when smoking and jaked up wheel is free. ive also checkd and double checked pads. ive done brakes so many times before with no probs. ive had this happen 3 times now in a week. brakes start to smoke but both brakes smoke the same then pedal goes soft/not very responsive. im going to go for a fluid change tomorow see how it goes and i shall report bak with my findings.
    thanks guys
     
  8. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Yes, fluid change is definitely worthwhile but will have no impact upon the smoking problem.

    Do you know what pads were in previously? Some work on abrasive friction but current road materials generally rely upon transferring a thin layer of pad material EVENLY to the disc surface. This is known in the friction trade as adherent friction and it's this which give modern brakes that lovely progressive grab and bite at low pedal forces.

    This (smoking during burnishing) might simply be a characteristic of the APEC pads you are using. 400 miles is probably enough but I would try half a dozen 60mph - 5mph applications - quite hard, hold it just behind where the ABS inervenes (expect some more smoking!) followed by gentle driving to cool things off. Try not to stop and don't hold then pedal down when the car is stationary otherwise you risk transferring pad material unevenly which will cause judder and vibration.
     
  9. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    thanks for the info. the pads before were factory pads.i cant post links yet but read that if fluid has got water in it it will boil and effectively cause steam in the caliper when hot causing brake caliper to put pads on from expanding steam.but it may be dribble what im reading.could it be the abs computer because my speedo dont work and it runs off the abs sensors but the clocks have been tested and are working fine and has new abs sensors all round
     
  10. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Water absorption will lower the effective boiling point of the fluid in the calipers but there's no way that steam will apply the brakes harder. If you had boiling fluid issues then the brakes would be super soft underfoot and give very poor stopping response.

    Large people carriers such as your Espace can be heavy on front brakes.

    I truly think this is a pads and discs issue, not a hydraulic issue or ABS issue. You have proven that nothing is binding ie. the wheels spin freely when the car is jacked up.

    As I have described it is very probably a non issue but new fluid is always a good plan every couple of years.

    Keep us posted and good luck.
     
  11. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    thats exactly it brakes go soft under my foot and it dont stop bit scary at speed but i also get the smoke from the pads thanks again i will report back with my findings |B
     
  12. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    I will have a look at APEC, I have heard of APEC but I have no idea where it sits as a brand in terms of quality/performaance. You don't need boiling fluid to get the soft pedal & no braking feeling.

    This can be very readily caused caused by smoke building up between the discs and pads, thus preventing the proper contact required for effective braking. Which is where I think my thoughts are heading. I had a very similar issue (smoking and poor pedal response) with a Peugeot 406 2.2 HDi a few years ago using Eicher pads and discs. Took them off (well, had them taken off) and replaced with ATE discs and pads. ATE is a Continental Teves brand and the braking settled immediately.

    What is the Renault OEM fitment? I am guessing from amongst these:

    ATE
    Jurid
    Bendix
    Textar
    Pagid.

    Don't dismiss OEM parts - in my 28 odd years of driving I've always found OEM to be the best way to go with friction parts.

    I'll report back ASAP, PS - welcome to Torque Cars :)
     
  13. TCJBOLDIE

    TCJBOLDIE Torque King

    Messages:
    4,904
    From:
    Brisbane
    Car:
    JB Starion
    Air in the lines will cause soft pedal so I would have the lines bled starting with the wheel further-est from the MC .
    The sequence is passenger side rear,driver side rear , passenger side front and finally driver side front.
     
  14. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    thanks guys really appreciate all your help/comments |B going to get it bleed tomorrow with some new fluid. whats the highest dot fluid you can get
     
  15. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Don't go DOT happy. Low viscosity synthetic DOT 4 is as far as yo need to go.

    DOT 5 is silicone based and I would avoid totally (it does not absorb water and is more compressible than DOT 4). DOT 5.1 is not much of an advance of synthetic DOT 4 and there are compromises to be made.

    But I still think you have a disc/pad issue, not a hydraulic issue.
     
  16. herb

    herb modherbrator Moderator

    Messages:
    4,057
    From:
    west midlands
    Car:
    Seat Leon Cupra
    I've got the same symptoms on my 75 atm and it's down to the caliper starting to seize. This may not be your issue but worth checking;)
     
  17. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    OP has checked for seizing. It's both fronts smoking,
     
  18. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    from what i can make out on the net the originals are made by Renault no other name on the box's or packets. ive just been out for around 10 miles and it seems a bit sluggish like its holding back at speed so im going to get the calipers off again tomorrow as it seems to be getting progressively worse .but again still all wheels move freely once home :confused:
     
    Last edited: 23 March 2015
  19. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    They definitely won't be made by Renault.
     
  20. Yugguy

    Yugguy Torque King

    Messages:
    4,787
    From:
    Rugby (expat Preston lad)
    Car:
    Merc C220Cdi Elegan
    What about the pads not going back into the seating properly on the carriers? You wouldn't feel any resistance but it would be enough to cause smoke and heat which might then cause the sponginess.

    I would recommend stripping it all down, a bloody good clean, make sure the pistons are moving free, and winding back ok, and then bleed the entire thing.
     
  21. obi_waynne

    obi_waynne Administrator Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    41,344
    From:
    Deal, Kent UK
    Car:
    A3 1.4 TFSI 150 COD
    Are they binding for short periods after they are released, a seized caliper can cause this. The wheel will roll freely when you test it unless you have just pressed the brake pedal, where the pads will stick for a while.
     
  22. herb

    herb modherbrator Moderator

    Messages:
    4,057
    From:
    west midlands
    Car:
    Seat Leon Cupra
    This is exactly what is happening with mine and on inspection the grommet/seal has perished so I've bought a 2nd hand caliper for £13 of eBay and will be fitting it the weekend
     
  23. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp
    ive had them off again cleaned and greased again. all seems to be going well at the mo fingers crossed .im going to take her for a run soon so ile let you all no how i get on thanks for all the help guys ive put a bit more spec about it in the newbies section and will upload a vid for you all
     
  24. HDi fun

    HDi fun TC ModFather

    Messages:
    15,384
    From:
    Buckinghamshire UK
    Car:
    Passat 2.0 TDi
    Any advance with the brakes??
     
  25. t16espace

    t16espace Wrench Pro

    Messages:
    23
    From:
    east midlands
    Car:
    t16 espace 200+bhp

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