rasing power of clio 1.5dci

[gadi]

Hi,
I connected the ELM327 cable, worked fine. Unfortunately, few readings are supported: Throttle Position, Intake Temp, Coolant Temp, RPM, Turbo Pressure. But it is ok to start with.

I already got a DVD with the remapped files, compared them (2 levels of tune) and located the difference. I also got the addresses of the maps. So I know where and what to change later, but i am only 99% sure where the checksum address is. And also will have to know how to calculate it, but this is something for later..

My problem is with the KWP2000+
When connecting it to the car, and trying to "DATA->READ", it writes:
"Waking up ECU..." and then "Sub function not supported or invalid format".
I am using the "Renault Delphi DCI" dll.

What am i doing wrong? Should I do something that enables the reading function??..

Need some help with this.

 

[obi_waynne]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

Sorry mate. I've never used the KWP2000 myself. I'm sure someone on here may have some experience with this.

Checksums can be a real pain to guess. It's hard enough if you know what the parameters are. Basic checksums use parity odd or even but cars are usually a lot more complext than this.

Who make the KWP2000 - do they provide support?

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

First, and before anything else - my car is the 65cv model (and it feels like one )

well, i solved it.. apparently the problem was not in KWP2000 but in the Delphi ECU of renault (and renault as in renault - everything is always complex). I had to install windows 98 because the Delphi cpu cannot communicate on virtual COM ports. Windows XP "converts" the USB port into virtual COM port rather then "real" com port (and Microsoft windows as in windows - everything is always complex..)

So, I downloaded the bin, 256K sized, and got the DATA section fine, but the CODE section was not readable (all bytes are 0xFFFF). That's makes disassembly imposible, but reading the 40k bytes of data-only, and reprog them into the ecu seems feasible.


So i am not resting... I have the modified file i got from the DVD, and the one named original. And now i think the original one is for later 1.5dci model, because it has the same maps (or what seems to be the maps) as in my bin file, but also have some additional 2D maps.

Anyhow, now i am comparing and mapping the differences between :
(Legend: ORI=DVD file named original, probably for the 82cv model
MOD=DVD file tuned from the ORI in what seems to be different 4 maps, and probably some thresholds figures
BIN=my clio's download bin file)
1. ORI <-> MOD : Look for the "needed-to-be-modified" tables in later model
2. BIN <-> #1 : Modify the tables same as done from ORI to MOD (when I will have the time i will upload some snapshots, it is nice to see the same tables in different addresses)
3. Identify suspected maps (ones not changed between ORI <-> MOD, but differs from what seems to be maps in the BIN)
4. Locate thresholds and other information using xml file i have for the Delphi ecu which obviously not matches my BIN, but can help to find them (probably the hard part of all)

When I finish this work, and I guess it will take me a week or two (or three or four...), I will get into the checksum issue. There's a checksum module which i need to get somehow (they sell it only to dealers, so I hope to find a way to get it).

If all the above will go fine - i will have a self tuned ecu. If not.. no no.. there is no "If not". It will..

 

[obi_waynne]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

Nice positive thinking. You should do a full write up so others can learn from your mistakes and solutions.

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

I will write here everything, not only for other to learn, but also to get help.
So, in my 4 stages plan, I think I finshed 3 of them today.

All in all, the DVD files had 7 tables (2D) with differences. All other tables, including the 3D maps are unchanged. I attached the 7 maps snapshots, and you may see there 2 interesting things:
table #5 does not being changed for higher values as in all other tables. I think the original file has "nicer" curbs (flatten peaks, if i am not making huge mistakes with my bad english). I wonder what this table refers to.
Also, table #7 has an issue, so I added in table #8 the snapshot from the ORI vs. MOD files : you can see in the circle that there was no modification at all, but my clio has higher values. I think I will change this questionable bytes to the ORI/MOD later after these changes will work.
I found many tables that are not appear in my clio, but hey... if it is not there - then nothing need to be changed ))
Also found the checksum byte at address 0x6002 (16 bit). Note that I have my original bin file with checksum, the ORI with its checksum, and the MOD file with new checksum. If it is a simple parity, and from nowhere I will find the start-end addresses of the checksum area, I will be able to change it. Otherwise 3 options:
1. Buy the checksum module for this ECU (if the company will sell it to me)
2. Find someone who knows DELPHI checksum algorithm (or somehow find it from desc file of any kind)
3. Reprogram & Start the engine about 65535 times......... lol

I am sure someone here knows how to get the module. If it is available for subaru, VW or KIA, then it can be for renault.

so, here are the tables:
http://www.savefile.com/files/1952547 (can i upload to here jpgs ?)

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

1. any reason why my last post was not published?
2. why thumb down?

 

[obi_waynne]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

1. You have less than 10 posts and as it contained a link it was held in the moderation queue. Its just our spam protection - sorry about that.
2. The thumb down was checked when you posted the thread. You can edit the post to change this or I can do it for you if you want.

When you get to 10 posts you will be able to upload jpg images here.

Your plan sounds good to me.

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

ok, after long hours i finished modifying the maps. now left with the little 16bit checksum issue. I am sure it is located in address 6002h, however tried to calculate the already calculated checksums with no success.

i understand delphi's ecu do not forgive for even single mistake in the checksum and re-programing the ecu might be impossible later.

how can i get some progress here?

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

I made it !!!!
Got the checksum somehow (the guy who does the checksums for very low price lives 10km from me.... the answer was here all the time)

And - wow. Big (huge) difference. upto 2500rpm the car remains as it used to be, but then it gets alive! 3000-5500rpm feels great with a LOT of torque, and second+third gear are amazing. Before the change it was better to change the gear when reaching 4500rpm, now 5500 (and what a difference - the wheels spins at 60kph in 2nd gear!!)

I didn't make accurate test, but i think it is about 10 seconds to reach 100kph from nill.

Don't mistake - it didn't became a sport car (and I drove a car that goes 0-200kph before modification while mine reaches 100kph after mod). But it at least i can drive like all other normal cars, and even keep the great fuel eco

one important issue : the obd2 diagnostic shows relatively the same values. the turbo pressure gets to the same peak it had, it just happens much faster (but only above 2500rpm). Also - when "charging" it arround 3000rpm with 1/4 paddle pushed, and the kicking it to the floor - there's 2 seconds of great accleration which never seen before on this dci.

now, the breaks MUST be replaced (although i remind myself to drive carefully in city zones, and smartly out size the city). reaching higher speed then usual requires breaking faster the usual.

i'll try to find clio-sport (or as you name it 172) total-loss and get the parts. after that - will need your help with the suspensions (I already saw there's a problem with wheel size, and lower suspensions)

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

I added open filter (the seller convinced me it is better then the inbox, and it was cheaper). It feels like the car has few more hp on higher rpm. And the sound is good - takes over the boring/annoying sound of the diesel noise.

As for the brakes, I have R14". He said it is a problem, and he could replace them easily if it was R15". So maybe just replacing the pads with familiar brand, and also the disks.

Next important things are: boost, vacuum, lambda and EGT gauges. The boost and vacuum are much cheaper then the lambda and EGT. But I want to know exactly what i did with the remap, so i will need them.

Beyond that (suspensions, etc.) - i will wait with that. Starting to think about saying you have here : Better (and cheaper) to buy stronger car then tune your old one. So far it was not true.. but all the other stuff.. may be. I will continue to take it one step at a time.

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

ok, the brakes will have new pads - it is the only reasonable solution.
- can you recommend a brand ??

as for the gauges - only boost and EGT are available for diesel. lambda sensor does not exists in diesel engines. I checked for the table i changed and thought it was air/fuel table, and I think now it is the fuel pressure in the common rail. There's a sensor there.
- should i do something with it? is there any gauge for that ?

last ques : when will i be able to upload some pics ?

 

[pgarner]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

mmm youd need to find out what pressure the diesels at, HDis the man to ask for that as it can be as high as 1500 BAR.

you can upload pics now

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

i asked someone who told me there's no need to check this pressure, the EGT will provide the needed information. As for high pressure - the injectors themselfs acts like secured-valves which may be opened if fuel pressure goes over the limit, thus spilling more fuel into the cylinder and raising abnoramlly the EGT.

now i need to drill a hole in the exhaust

my question regarding the brakes still stands : what brand of brakes is recommended (and maybe - what type ?). I want to replace the disks and pads with the best-can-get

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

and question #2: where is the hole for wires from the sensors to the inside of the car (the path through the fire wall) ?

 

[pgarner]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

depends you mind find that the ecu is in the engine bay to minimilise wiring through the fire wall.

look down behind the throttle pedal theres normally a hole there for the throttle cable, even alot of Drive by wire throttles still have this grommet as some of the basic models moight not have DBW

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

tried but couldn't find the place for it.
today i am going to the mechanic to drill and install the EGT probe, and i will let him find the way inside the car.

any suggestions with good brand of brakes pads & disks ?

 

[pgarner]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

brembo, black diamond are supposed to be good discs as well

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

thanks, i will ask tomorrow for such discs.
as for the gauges - i installed the turbo, and the EGT probe is reaching the place it should be mounted to but i didn't drill yet, so no EGT reading for now.

and i am little confused. original chip - 1.1 bar max, with my changes 1.2 - 1.25 bar
a. this is high pressure at any case
b. by adding less then 0.2 bar reaching well felt change

i am not sure this is what i was expecting to find. is it normal

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

ok - i have news..
after installing the EGT, and driving with and without the chip tune, here are the accurate results (all in kph, bar, celcius):
stock : 0-100 in 14sec, 1.1 bar, egt max 550 degrees on full load at 170kph
open filter: 0-100 in 13.5 sec, all the rest remains
chip tuned: 0-100 in 10.8sec, 1.25 bar, egt... well climbing up, reaching 650 degrees and continue to climb up. when reaching topspeed of 180-185kph and driving like that with full throttle for about 30 seconds, the temp reaches above 700 degrees and the red "stop" led in the dash turns on. I didn't took it far then that of course.

so, now i know the following:
1. ECU tune must be together with EGT installation
2. I have the answer "why manufacturers do not chipping the car by themselfs" (you don't expect common drivers to look on the EGT all the time)
3. EGT climb up is a function of RPM, load (there's a difference..), time period of heavy load

I will now continue to:
1. install the universal IC (probably with rubber tubes like in a friend's octavia TDI and not aluminium tubes)
2. change the actuator nut to gain more pressure (up to 1.4 bar) after the IC installation

I'll have the next update probably much later (need to get the IC, installation.. takes time)

 

[pgarner]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

sounds like your starting to get the hang of this now mate.

 

[feingreth]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

Hi and WOW...
Where do you get all your info??? Tell me please with what can I read and copy my tables (I have the petrol 1.2 8v) and even write them back (I have the ELM327 but don't have that much to see, do you know any program that will give more info that is compatible with the ELM327 or any other hadware)... and please... no... I'm begging you to tell me where I can learn about ecu maps, 'cause I've been reading your posts and half of the time I've been:blink: Is the KWP2000 that good? can it do the reading/flashing of the ecu? and what more do I need to change the maps (knowledge&software??). I'm starting to be a big fan of your work... Can't wait to see what's next...

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

i am flattered..
a. my car is a turbo-diesel one. it is completely different from atmosphere-benzine
b. the KWP2000 has a long list of supported cars. i almost sure yours in it. in order to be sure - look on the ecu under the hood and find the manufacturer and model. then look if it is supported under the kwp (be sure to buy KWP2000+ PLUS!).
c. "where do you get all your info" - several places:
1. Internet, forums, etc.
2. Hours in the garage questioning the mechanic about almost anything (I was surprised to get a lot of info from the central-renault garage).
3. Try & Learn - I tried, took a risk. It worked.
d. ecu maps: there is no cook-book for that. each ecu and each car & engine should be studied. it took me a lot of time to get the best results. to my friends i suggest to buy already made chip because it is risky thing and can take days till desired result reached
e. software: the kwp has its flashing soft which used to get your original maps, and write new ones. in order to write new one - you need the file to be "checkedsum". i found someone who does that with a soft he bought (which costs a lot !!!) and he did that for a few bocks).

anyhow, your car is not equipped with turbo from stock, and therefor i guess hasn't got the needed sensors. I wouldn't try to change things in the ecu.

 

[feingreth]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

Thanks for the reply. This will give me something to think about... for a long time... better start working...:bigsmile:

 

[gadi]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

I think the title of the thread should be "rasing power of clio 1.5dci" because the ECU thing is already done and finished. Anyway - I have a problem with the installation of the IC. First pictures:

1 - my lady
2,3 - IC
4,5,6,7 - open filter installation. now having space for the IC tubes
8 - the T for the turbo gauge tube (later on that pipe the boost pressure sensor of the ecu)
9 - EGT probe (I have pictures after removing the exahust and the drill and all, but it is not intersting at all)


the problem:
in 10 (pic taken from the front) and in 11 (from above) you can see that the IC pipe will be installed near to the alternator and other spinning objects..
a. does it a problem? (it will be close to the alternator belt, something like 5 cm)
b. any suggestions

 

[feingreth]

Re: Clio 1.5dci ECU Tune

I may be pointing the obvious here... but the IC tubing being so close to the belt (and the belt being of rubber) wouldn't it heat the hell of it and cause early fatigue? (and god forbid rupture causing any number of problems). Is it possible another route?

 

[pgarner]

changed the title for you mate

 

[gadi]

feingreth - you have a point. maybe i will take the tube in a completely different route - down and then together with the other tube in the same side.

pgarner - 10x

 

[gadi]

it turns out rubber is not good... the heat of the engine will dry it up. I tried 2 type of rubber tubes got from someone, and they where no good.

so i ordered aluminium piping kit. will get it and install with it.

three questions:
1. what is the typical (1.4bar) temperature in and out the IC ? (max temps also)
2. what is the implication of narrowing the pipe through 30-40cm from 2.5" to 1.5" and then get it back to 2.5" ?
3. each 90 degree elbow coupler probably does something to the boost. what exactly? (lag? max boost?..)

 

[feingreth]

I only have one answer. This site is where I learned everything I know about turbos... The link shows only turbo optimisation and I think it answers most of your questions, although I suggest reading all the tech pages since I am sure you will learn something new... Hope it helps

And the link is: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_optimization.html

 

[gadi]

I've got the answers i needed (some from the internet, some from asking pros)
Seems all applicable...

 

[gadi]

at last i have some time to continue the work on the clio. I installed the intercooler pipes.
However had 2 problems:
1. the diameter of the turbo pipe is 1.25", the pipes i am using are 2.5". I used a middle size tube and in order to seal it i used pieces from the silicon couplers. One of them was not sealed as needed and a lot of oil that comes with the pressured air make the area very dirty.. RTV cannot hold the 1.4 bar pressure

2. in the 90 deg point from the pipes down towards the ic, when boosting to 1.4 immediately - the coupler doesn't hold the pipe (with the clamps of couse). I think i will have to use aluminium 90 elbow with 2 straight couplers instead

Any suggestion regarding these 2 issues?

 

[pgarner]

are the pipes rolled at the edge ? ie have a small lip
what clamps are you using ? normally jubilee/hose clips or mikalor clamps ?
these are the mikalor clamps - they are more expensive however can handle higher pressures. also they dont have the worm style fitting that can come loose as found in jubilee clips

 

[gadi]

the pipes has no lips. simple cut at the end. i can't replace them now.
the clamps are standard ones i guess.. not like mikaltor's. maybe i need to find different clamps. i'll go shopping next week and see what i can find.

 

[pgarner]

the pipes with the lips with proper clamps should stop the pipes coming off. take the pipes off and see if a fabricator can put a small bead around the edge to help